Old Stained Glass Lamp Shade With Lion & Snake

[NKW1963]

I am trying to find out some information about this stained glass shade. I have had several online appraisals, a guarantee from the auction house where it was purchased and other opinions from stained glass experts. Most agree that the glass looks old. I would like to find someone in the NH or Boston area that could tell me for sure. It is not a easy piece to appraise. For one thing my last appraiser told me that no old stain glass lamp shade has ever been done with a lion on it. So Im not even sure if he looked at my photos after seeing the lion. He all so told me it was in excellent condition which is not true. At least i don't think its true. If a shade has cracks in the glass pieces and the metal is pulling away from the glass in places, is that considered excellent condition? He said the lamp is new? The auction house where I bought this is out of MA. They have been in business over 50 years and he guarantees the lamp is old! I would love some other opinions on the lamp. As a novice to stained glass I have started my own research which includes ordering all the books I can find, emailing stained glass repair companies, and just about anyone I can find who will offer an opinion. What's yours?
http://web.me.com/npichette/Old_Or_New_Glass/Photos.html

[Javahut]

Whoa!!  I see by the date that this was posted on the 7th, like most people, I work for a living and do not check in here every day, but I know that is more than alot of people.

YOu are asking a group of professional people to stop what they are doing, RIGHT NOW, and tell you what you want to know.  I do that quite frequently when people come into my studio with what the suspect to be an old, name lamp and want it authenticated.  and I charge them money to do it.  They make an appointment and we take the time needed to research to get the answers to the questions.  and sometimes it takes more than a couple of minutes or couple of days!!

Having said all that, I am looking at your lamp, and when I have a knowledgeable answer, will post what I feel is correct.

and you, ma'am are trying to be a bully, don't work here.

[Javahut]

I am curious to know the provenance of this lamp.  Purchased in MA and assured of it's authenticity? Does it state that on the receipt?  Just doing a preliminary perusal, but....

[Vic Rothman]

old and new are relative terms. Can you put a date on this? If you look at this web site, I think you will find most of your glass. Kokomo has been in business since 1888.
http://www.kog.com/more-glass/samples.html?page=1
Vic

[Javahut]

Interesting lamp, but if the auction house authenticated it as new, I would doubt it, and I can mention why.
As Vic mentioned, Kokomo Granite Catspaw, still made, sure looks like the background, the Aqua that you speak of.  the lines and marks are not from specific tools, but from the water cooled roller that pushes the glass into the texture that is in the table surface, same table they use today was used prior to 1950, when they switched over to a double roll system for the granite glass. 
The ripple glass up around the APERATURE ring appears to be a HERRINGBONE RIPPLE made by Uroboros, not an old company by comparison to Kokomo. there does appear to be some old glass in the medium amber detail area, but I have seen silver opal from Lins that looked like it, from FL, in fact I had some in my inventory. 
THe arguement that "he glass is old so the shade is" is a weak arguement because there are a great many beat up old windows that can be purchased and the glass used by some very talented artists who know how to do things to look old, as was done here.

Ever wonder why the dark dirt all over the lamp is so even?  Because it is not dirt, at least not from being old.  You can clean about any old leaded shade with Scrubbin Bubbles bathroom cleaner and it will remove the dirt and not harm the patina, have used it hundreds of times on old Lamps from Tiffany on down.  YOu use it on that shade and you will be in for a surprise. that blackness will come off, and so will the shoepolish used to "accent" the color.  If you clean it up around the apperature ring I see bare solder peeking thru the existing patina.

[Javahut]

Want more? 
I leave the above statement with a qualifier that by having the shade in my hands I may change my opinion, but I doubt it.  Whoever made this shade is good, but I have seen this work before when I was working with a very well known collector/ dealer.  There are certain traits that are consistent.

I would like to see more pics of the top portion of the base, and the top of the shade both on and off the base without the cap on.  I only briefly looked at that part last night after work, I was tired.
I can come up with more reasons why I think this is newer, as in the past 20 years new, or at least newer than "turn of the century. old" which is what it is trying to be.  The base in "French bronze"  (actually painted  cast zinc)would be unusual, the only one I know of using a white metal with leaded shades was Handel, and this isn't.

So I am of the opinion that someone found a nice base, had a talented but poor craftsman and said, "Let's make this, to match this, run it thru an auction and make some money." 

If you want to test my theory, take it back to where you bought it, tell them you doubt the authenticity and want your money back. If you are right, and it is old, they will tell you why you are wrong.

[Javahut]

If you bought the lamp because you like it, NONE of this matters, it is nice, enjoy it for what it is.  TO me, this is the only reason to buy a lamp of this style, unless you are a serious collector, and then you do NOT buy at auction unless you really know your stuff.
I have heard a statements about serious collectors having at least one forgery in their collections and not realizing it.  There are some very good craftsmen out there who unfortunately have found that by doing what was done with your shade they can make a very good underground living, when the Chinese have beat the daylights out of the NEW leaded lamp market with poor workmanship and shoddy designs, and no art at all, and dirt cheap prices.
Ask me how I know this.
There are many other things I see in this lamp that supports my opinion, I can list them also, but I see no point in it.

[NKW1963]

I haven't even had a chance to read all the replies but after reading the first thought I better address my post. I certainly didn't mean to imply that I wanted answers asap. I was just new to the site having posted before looking over all the post. I noticed that the views in many of the post were very large with no the replies being very low compared to other sites I have been on. Please accept my apologies if you got the impression I wanted service NOW! that really wasn't my intention at all. I do realize people work and have jobs and have even included that on many of my emails sent out. I have just sent out so many that I guess I wasn't taking the time to include the " thanks in advance and when and if you have the time I would appreciate it, etc" Sorry I didn't take the time to preview the post and realize what it must have sounded like. ...............But I did get some replies!......

[NKW1963]

Vic,
I was told by a online appraiser it was a new modern lamp. I was told by the auctioneer it was old as in 100 years old. I have sent many emails to people in the stained glass business, historical groups, glass companies etc. I have heard back from many of them. The problem is they all have different opinions about the glass and the lead work. My online appraiser said there are no antique lamps ever been done with a lion. So Im concerned if any other appraisers will look at the lion and form an opinion just on that fact alone. The auctioneer is a reputable company that has been in business for at least 50 years out of MA. I emailed him and he assured me it was old. He said he absolutely guarantees it to be old! Im just not sure who to take it to that would really know which is why I thought this site might be able to help. I don't mind paying for an appraisal but I would just like to know that the person I take it to will know what they are doing.  And I do absolutely love the lamp, I have been to Africa several times and just fell in love with this lamp. I would just like to find out who made it or at least its age. Thanks everyone for your opinions ! I really do appreciate it!

[NKW1963]

Javahut,
Are you saying that if I clean the lamp with scrubbing bubbles it will wash away anything that would have been put on there to make it look old? If nothing washes away that it is old? Thanks!

[NKW1963]

Vic,
Thanks for the website. I had looked at that. I don't see anything on there that looks familiar but they must have produced a lot of glass over the past 100 years. I couldn't see any texture in the photos , maybe that's the problem with my photos. Mine almost look more like rocks than glass, they are very textured and uneven. Is there anyway to tell if it came from them 90 years ago or 10? I guess I just thought that glass could somehow be dated. I am tempted to try the scrubbing bubbles but was told from someone who works on stained glass in MA not to do any repairs or anything until I had more information. I don't know if this includes cleaning, that was actually going to be one of my next questions. If the glass is old I don't want to use a harsh cleaner and wash away all those line and scribble marks on the underside of the glass. Which is another reason I feel its old. From what I have read on stained glass the line work , scribbles whatever you call them is part of the painting , its added to block light in areas or separate fingers or for faces etc. Those would have to have been done when putting the lamp together. If they would have taken them out of a old window seems like the marks would be all wrong.

[Javahut]

First, if you love the lamp, then leave it as is, and enjoy it. 
If you want to dig into origins, that is going to be tough, the people making this quality of Repro keep very much under the radar. There is a reason.
The texture to look at, on KOG.com is the Granite Catspaw, generally in a sample box there will be a clear sample, and the color closest to what you have, overlay the clear to the color and that will give you a close approximation of what the actual sheet will look like, I'll look in my box tomorrow.
In repsonse to the question about Scrubbing bubbles, yes, works amazingly well, and is not harsh enough to hurt fragile cold patinas, which is what is on old shades.  I have used it on Tiffany's, Unique's, Handel's, Duffner's, the only lamps I am alittle more cautious with are the metal overlay shades with Polychrome finish, some of those are much more fragile, depending upon maker.
Having said that, before cleaning the lamp, be sure you are going to keep it, because the seller may deny any claim after cleaning. never know.  But if you smell that shade, I bet it has a bit of an "acidy" odor, and when you rub the surface it feels "waxy", and if you run your thumbnail over the leading, I bet a different color is stuck on the top side of your thumbnail, not alot, but some.
The solder work are the lines you are refering to, and it is not done with a tool in the solder, it is done by uneven heat as an iron is moved along the surface of the copper foil.
Something else I see in the pictures...

[Javahut]

Some of you photos show a whiteish residue along the edge where the glass touches the glass on the surface.  This is commmon when a hot iron is used with a copper foil that has an acrylic adhesive on it.  SUch as those used in stained glass construction in "modern" times.  the "old guys" and those creating high end Reproductions, mostly Tiffanys, split their own foil after it has been coated with a bees wax and rosin mix, this foil then sticks to about any glass surface, even those not run on a grinder to give the glass "tooth" which the acrylic adhesive needs to hold fast without sliding.  The waxed foil also allows the wax between foil and glass to "melt away" leaving a small gap between glass and foil.  if you hold the lamp by the top aperature opening, and lightly tap the lamp with your knuckles midway down towards the bottom rim, you can hear a rattle.  Does your lamp rattle?  I bet not, mostly because I see that residue, which gives a much tighter fit with the acrylic adhesive.  Still would like to see that top cap and light bulb sockets on top of the lamp, and the aperature ring, inside and out.

[Javahut]

Cap and finial appear to be Duffner table lamp pattern, but the shade does not havethe critical ring that sits on a duffner "cup" that is on a base, wold love to see more pics of the base without the shade on it.  The more I look at it, the more I find stuff that doesn't add up.

[NKW1963]

Java, I posted some photos of the base with and without the shade. The lighting was awful but I think it shows the details you requested. Thanks for the suggestions and opinion, I appreciate it !